>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

PRESIDENT TRUMP FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGES AMERICA AS HIS SWEEPING DOMESTIC POLICY BILL COMES INTO LAW.

SENATOR BERNARD SANDERS UNGOVERNED RISING THE OPPOSITION.

> >> THEN.

THE FOLLOW-UP FROM ISRAEL'S DEADLY BOMBING OF IRAN'S PRESENT.

> >> AND THE BANALITY OF EVIL, A NEW DOCUMENTARY ABOUT THE LIFE AND LEGACY OF --AND WHAT SHE LEARNED ABOUT TYRANNY IN NAZIS GERMANY AND BEYOND.

>> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WE ARE, SYLVIA A AND SIMON B POINT PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, MARK J BLUSH AND ARE, THE FILM AND M D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, STEPHEN J MELVIN, THE PETER G PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

SIX MONTHS INTO TRUMP 2.

0, AND HE IS GATHERING MORE POWER THAN EVER.

THE PRESIDENT MIGHT REQUEST TO REMAKE AMERICA AS WELL AND TRULY ON WITH THE PASSAGE OF HIS SWEEPING DOMESTIC POLICY BILL.

IT'LL MEAN MAJOR AND SIGNIFICANT CHANGES TO THE LIVES OF MOST AMERICANS.

THE BILL ENSURES A HUGE TRANSFER OF WEALTH FROM THE LESS WELL-OFF TO THE RICHEST, A MASSIVE SURGE IN FUNDING FOR ICE, MILLIONS OF PEOPLE UNABLE TO ACCESS MEDICAID, AND MUCH MORE.

YET POLL AFTER POLL SHOWS THE BILL IS UNPOPULAR WITH MOST AMERICANS, SO WHAT OF THE OPPOSITION?

DEMOCRATS AND THEIR SUPPORTERS ARE CERTAINLY FRUSTRATED.

BERNIE SANDERS, THOUGH, IS GALVANIZING SUPPORT IN A WAY THAT MAINSTREAM DEMOCRATS ARE NOT RIGHT NOW.

HIS FIGHTING OLIGARCHY TOUR HAS BEEN DRAWING RECORD CROWDS ON AND SENATOR SANDERS JOINS ME NOW FROM CAPITOL HILL.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

>> SO, SENATOR SANDERS, WE'VE JUST SENT THE PRESIDENT IS REMAKING AMERICA, AND DEMOCRATS SEEM TO BE OUT ON A LIMB UNABLE TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

FIRST AND FOREMOST, WHAT IS THE, YOU KNOW, AND OLIGARCHY TOUR?

WHAT IS IT THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO TELL AMERICANS ABOUT THIS BILL?

>> WELL, WHAT'S GOING ON IN AMERICA TODAY IS THAT WE HAVE AN UNPRECEDENTED LEVEL OF INCOME AND WEALTH INEQUALITY.

THAT MEANS WE HAVE FEWER AND FEWER PEOPLE OWNING AMERICAN SOCIETY.

THE TOP 1% NOW OWNS MORE WEALTH THAN THE BOTTOM 93%, IF YOU COULD BELIEVE THAT.

AND ONE MAN, ONE MAN, ELON MUSK, HE HIMSELF OWNS MORE WEALTH THAN THE BOTTOM 52% OF AMERICAN SOCIETY, AMERICAN HOUSEHOLDS.

AND, AS YOU RECALL, WHEN TRUMP WAS INAUGURATED, HE HAD THE THREE WEALTHIEST GUYS IN AMERICA RIGHT BEHIND HIM, MUSK, BASALS, AND ZUCKERBERG.

AND RIGHT BEHIND THEM WERE 13 OTHER BILLIONAIRES WHO TRUMP HAD NOMINATED TO HEAD UP MAJOR GOVERNMENT AGENCIES.

SO WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT RIGHT NOW IN AMERICA IS A GOVERNMENT OF THE BILLIONAIRE CLASS, BY THE BILLIONAIRE CLASS, AND FOR THE BILLIONAIRE CLASS.

AND WHAT THESE GUYS ARE DOING IS SAYING, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT ENOUGH.

WE WANT MORE AND MORE.

AND THEN YOU HAVE THE SO-CALLED TRUMP'S BIG BEAUTIFUL BILL, THE RECONCILIATION BILL, THAT, AS YOU INDICATED, IT IS THE LARGEST TRANSFER OF WEALTH FROM LOW INCOME AND WORKING-CLASS AMERICANS TO THE TOP 1%, THE VERY RICHEST PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER HAD IT SO GOOD, GETTING $1 TRILLION IN TAX BREAKS, AND THAT IS PAID FOR BY MASSIVE CUTS TO MEDICAID, THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT, NUTRITION.

FOOD IS LITERALLY GOING TO BE TAKEN AWAY FROM KIDS WHO ARE HUNGRY.

EDUCATION IS GOING TO BE SIGNIFICANTLY CUT.

>> OKAY.

>> SO WHAT WE ARE LOOKING AT IN TIME IS THE PEOPLE ON TOP NEVER HAD IT SO GOOD, WORKING FAMILIES ARE STRUGGLING TO PUT FOOD ON THE TABLE.

>> SO, SENATOR, YOU'VE CALLED IT THE MOST DANGEROUS PIECE OF LEGISLATION IN THE MODERN HISTORY OF OUR COUNTRY.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THAT'S HYPERBOLE, BUT WHAT I DON'T KNOW, OKAY, THEN WHAT ARE YOU ALL DOING ABOUT IT?

BECAUSE THE DEMOCRATS SEEM TO BE FROZEN IN TIME, AND YOU COME ON THE PROGRESSIVE WING, SEEM TO BE GOING OUT AND GETTING LOTS AND LOTS OF CROWDS.

HOW IS THIS GOING TO CHANGE?

>> IT IS, BY THE WAY, IT IS NOT HYPERBOLE.

A RECENT STUDY CAME OUT FROM YALE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA WHICH SUGGESTS THAT WHEN YOU DENY, TAKE AWAY HEALTHCARE FROM 17 MILLION PEOPLE IN AMERICA, AN ADDITIONAL 50,000 PEOPLE A YEAR WILL DIE UNNECESSARILY BECAUSE THEY DON'T GET TO A DOCTOR WHEN THEY SHOULD.

THAT'S NOT HYPERBOLE.

THAT'S REAL, A TRAGIC, TRAGIC REALITY.

NOW, WHAT ARE WE DOING?

WELL, AS YOU INDICATED, NEEDLESS TO SAY, GIVING MASSIVE TAX BREAKS TO BILLIONAIRES AND CUTTING HEALTHCARE IN EDUCATION AND NUTRITION FROM WORKING- CLASS FAMILIES IS NOT POPULAR.

SO WHAT I HAVE BEEN DOING, WORKING WITH PEOPLE LIKE ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ, IS RUNNING AROUND THE COUNTRY, MOBILIZING PEOPLE IN THE TRADE UNION MOVEMENT TO STAND UP AND TO SHOW THE REST OF THE COUNTRY AND THE WORLD THAT WE WILL NOT TOLERATE THIS OLIGARCHY, WE WILL NOT TOLERATE THIS MASSIVE TRANSFER OF WEALTH, WE WILL NOT TOLERATE THIS KLEPTOCRACY OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND DISCONTINUED MORE ON WORKING FAMILIES.

AND WE'VE GOT TO BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER, WE'VE GOT TO MOBILIZE THE 2026 ELECTIONS.

WE HAVE BEEN FOCUSING, BY THE WAY, IN MOST CASES, NOT ALL, BUT MOST CASES, IN DISTRICTS THAT HAVE REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATION IN CONGRESS.

WE WERE IN, IN TOWNS WHERE WE BROUGHT OUT 20,000 PEOPLE IN, IN COMMUNITIES WITH REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVES TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT THOSE PEOPLE KNOW WHAT THEIR MEMBERS OF CONGRESS ARE VOTING FOR.

>> SO THAT'S SO INTERESTING.

I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU ABOUT THAT, BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT JUST PREACHING TO THE CHOIR.

YOU ARE GOING OUT INTO RED STATES AND, AND, YOU KNOW, TELLING THEM WHAT'S AT STAKE AS WELL.

SO THE QUESTION IS, WHAT IS THE BIG STRATEGY?

YOU HAVE BEEN VERY SOLID IN YOUR POLITICAL, YOU KNOW, MISSION AND YOUR CAREER.

YOU'RE A PROGRESSIVE.

ONCE YOU CALLED YOURSELF A SOCIALIST WHEN YOU WERE A MAYOR IN VERMONT, AND NOW YOU'VE ENDORSED THE CAMPAIGN OF THE RON MONDAVI FOR NEW YORK MAYOR.

HE, OF COURSE, HAS TAKEN NOT JUST THE U. S. , BUT THE WORLD BY STORM.

YOU POSTED, AT THIS DANGEROUS MOMENT IN HISTORY, STATUS QUO POLITICS ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH.

WE NEED NEW LEADERSHIP THAT'S PREPARED TO STAND UP TO POWERFUL CORPORATE INTEREST AND FIGHT FOR THE WORKING CLASS.

TREND 26 MAMDANI IS PROVIDING THAT VISION.

HE IS THE BEST CHOICE FOR NEW YORK CITY MAYOR.

SO WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THE NUMBER OF NEW YORKERS WHO SAY, OH MY GOD, HE'S NEVER RUN ANYTHING, AND HE SAYS FREE BUSES, AND HE'S, YOU KNOW, IS HE ANTI-SEMITIC OR NOT?

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO PEOPLE?

>> LET ME DEAL, LOOK.

FIRST OF ALL, UNDERSTAND, HE'S GOING TO HAVE THE ENTIRE ESTABLISHMENT, THE OLIGARCHY, THE BILLIONAIRES COMING DOWN ON HIS HEAD.

NOT ONLY BECAUSE HE'S DEMANDING THAT THE WEALTHY AND LARGE CORPORATIONS IN NEW YORK CITY START PAYING THEIR FAIR SHARE OF TAXES, THEY ARE WORRIED THAT HIS CAMPAIGN IS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT COULD HAPPEN ALL OVER THE COUNTRY WHEN YOU BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER TO DEMAND THE GOVERNMENT THAT WORKS FOR ALL OF US AND NOT JUST THE FEW.

SO THEY REALLY WANT TO CRUSH THIS GUY.

AND YOU HAVE BILLIONAIRES SAYING QUITE OPENLY, WE ARE GOING TO SPEND AS MUCH AS IT TAKES TO DEFEAT THIS GUY.

YOU HAVE DEMOCRATIC, DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP NOW REFUSING TO JUMP ON BOARD A CAMPAIGN WHERE THIS GUY IS THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE.

SO MOST IMPORTANTLY, I'M GOING TO DO EVERYTHING I CAN TO SEE THAT ZOHRAN BECOMES THE NEXT MAYOR OF NEW YORK IN TERMS OF HIS POLICIES.

LOOK, IT IS VERY, VERY HARD TO GOVERN A MAJOR AMERICAN CITY.

A LOT OF PROBLEMS OUT THERE.

BUT I THINK HE IS A VERY SMART GUY.

I DO KNOW THAT HE IS PREPARED TO REACH OUT TO HIS, GET AS MANY ADVISERS IN NEW YORK CITY AND AROUND THE COUNTRY.

HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH THE CRISIS OF AFFORDABLE HOUSING?

HOW DO YOU MAKE HEALTHCARE MORE ACCESSIBLE AND AFFORDABLE IN NEW YORK CITY?

HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH TRANSPORTATION?

YOU KNOW, THE IDEA OF HAVING MUNICIPALLY FUNDED GROCERY STORES, IT'S NOT A RADICAL IDEA.

WORKING-CLASS FAMILIES WANT TO HAVE HEALTHY FOOD FOR THEIR KIDS.

THEY CAN'T AFFORD IT RIGHT NOW.

NOT A RADICAL IDEA.

BUT IT IS NO EASY TASK TO BECOME A MAYOR, AND I AM CONFIDENT THAT HE HIMSELF AND THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM CAN DO A GOOD JOB.

>> SO WHEN, YOU KNOW, PUT THE PEDAL TO THE METAL, SO TO SPEAK, AND THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY DOES SEEM TO BE MOVING MORE TO THE PROGRESSIVE SIDE, YOUR WING OF THE PARTY.

BUT THAT'S NOT ALL AMERICA.

THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, MAYBE, BUT NOT ALL OF AMERICA.

YOU YOURSELF DIDN'T HAVE A HUGE AMOUNT OF SUCCESS WHEN YOU WERE RUNNING FOR THE PRESIDENCY IN, IN NEW YORK PRIMARIES AND STUFF.

DO YOU THINK THAT THE CONCERN ABOUT, WELL, PROGRESSIVE POLITICS IN AMERICA, CERTAINLY THE PRESIDENTIAL LEVEL, YOU KNOW, COULD HAMPER YOUR PROGRESSIVE MISSION, EVEN THOUGH YOU'RE CREATING SO MUCH EXCITEMENT NOW?

>> LOOK, THIS IS WHAT I THINK.

THERE IS A LOT OF CONFUSION ABOUT WHAT BEING A PROGRESSIVE IS ABOUT.

AND YOU GOT PEOPLE GOING, YOU WANT TO DEFUND THE POLICE, YOU WANT OPEN BORDERS.

THAT'S CRAP.

NO SERIOUS PROGRESSIVE THAT I KNOW BELIEVES IN THAT.

CRIME IS A SERIOUS PROBLEM.

YOU HAD TO FIGURE OUT INTELLIGENT WAYS, HUMANE WAYS TO DEAL WITH IT.

BUT THIS IS WHAT I DO KNOW.

WHAT I DO KNOW IS YOU ASK PEOPLE, IS IT APPROPRIATE IN AMERICA THAT YOU HAVE ONE MAN OWNING MORE WEALTH THAN THE BOTTOM 52% OF AMERICA, THAT YOU HAVE LARGE CORPORATIONS, IN SOME CASES, MAKING BILLIONS, NOT PAYING A PENNY IN TAXES?

WHETHER YOU'RE CONSERVATIVE, PROGRESSIVE, DOES THAT MAKE SENSE?

NO.

TWO PEOPLE IN AMERICA THINK THAT WE SHOULD BE THE ONLY MAJOR COUNTRY ON EARTH NOT TO GUARANTEE HEALTHCARE TO ALL PEOPLE AT A TIME WHEN WE'RE SPENDING TWICE AS MUCH PER CAPITA AS THE CANADIANS AND PEOPLE THROUGHOUT EUROPE?

OUR SYSTEM IS MUCH WORSE.

DO WE HAVE THE COURAGE TO TAKE ON THE DRUG COMPANIES AND THE INSURANCE COMPANIES, GUARANTEE HEALTHCARE TO ALL PEOPLE?

SHOULD WE BE ADDRESSING THE MAJOR CRISIS THAT WE'RE DEALING WITH IN AFFORDABLE HOUSING?

CITIES, TOWNS ALL OVER THIS COUNTRY, WHY ARE WE NOT BUILDING MORE LOW INCOME AND AFFORDABLE HOUSING RATHER THAN PUTTING MONEY INTO THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX?

SO I THINK THAT THE ISSUES THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, AN ECONOMY THAT WORKS FOR ALL, NOT JUST THE FEW, DEMANDING THAT THE WEALTHIEST PEOPLE, LARGEST CORPORATIONS START PAYING THEIR FAIR SHARE OF TAXES, I THINK THOSE ARE IDEAS THAT WILL RESONATE ALL OVER THIS COUNTRY, AND WILL LEAD TO STRONG ELECTION VICTORIES.

>> SOME OF THOSE ISSUES, LIKE TRYING TO DESTROY OBAMACARE AND TRUMP 1.

0 THAT APPARENTLY LEAD TO A DEFEAT IN THE MIDTERMS, SO I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO.

BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU ALSO, BECAUSE I JUST HEARD AN INTERVIEW WITH A PREVIOUS PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE AND SECRETARY OF STATE JOHN KERRY, AND HE WAS ASKED ABOUT IMMIGRATION, AND TRUMP HAS WON THE WAR ON IMMIGRATION, AT LEAST THAT'S HOW HE GOT ELECTED.

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT NOW.

AND KERRY WAS SAYING, YOU NEED BORDERS.

WE HAVE PASSPORTS FOR A REASON.

THE DEMOCRATS SCREWED UP.

THEY LET THAT BORDER BE OPEN TERRITORY, AND THEY'VE PAID FOR IT.

NOW TRUMP IS POURING, I THINK, IN THIS NEW BILL, $150 BILLION INTO IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT BY GIVING ALL THIS MONEY TO I. C. E. .

SO WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO, AS DEMOCRATS, TO ADDRESS THE LEGITIMATE CONCERN ABOUT IMMIGRATION AND BORDERS?

>> I'M NOT A DEMOCRAT, I'M AN INDEPENDENT.

>> YES, I KNOW --SORRY.

>>, BUT THIS IS WHAT I DO THINK.

KERRY IS CERTAINLY RIGHT THAT YOU DON'T HAVE A COUNTRY WITHOUT BORDERS.

IF YOU HAVE BORDERS, YOU SHOULD ENFORCE THAT BORDER.

DEMOCRATS HAVE NOT DONE.

IT'S GOING TO --THEY SHOULD, PERIOD.

END OF DISCUSSION.

THAT'S CORRECT.

BUT I WILL TELL YOU SOMETHING ELSE.

IN THIS COUNTRY RIGHT NOW, YOU HAVE MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WHO CAME FROM LATIN AMERICA OR WHEREVER, BUT WORKING IN MEAT-PACKING PLANTS, THEY'RE HARVESTING CROPS.

THEY'VE BEEN IN THIS COUNTRY FOR YEARS.

THEY'RE LAW-ABIDING.

THEY ARE PAYING TAXES, AND THEY ARE DOING SOME OF THE MOST DANGEROUS, UNDERPAID WORK IN AMERICA.

YEAH.

IN THE FIELDS, THEY'RE IN MEAT- PACKING PLANTS.

THEY ARE WORKING WITH OUR CHILDREN IN CHILD CARE CENTERS.

THEY'RE WORKING WITH OUR PARENTS IN NURSING HOMES.

AND IF YOU ASK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, SHOULD WE BE JUST THROWING THESE PEOPLE, MILLIONS OF THESE PEOPLE OUT ON THE STREET, OFTEN WITHOUT ANY DUE PROCESS?

THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL SAY NO.

SO WE NEED TO FIND SOME SOLUTION TO THAT PROBLEM, BUT IT CANNOT SIMPLY BE THROWING MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE OUT ON THE STREET AND THROWING, IN SOME CASES, INSANELY, TAKING PEOPLE AND PUTTING THEM IN SUDAN, COUNTRIES WHERE THEY HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF.

SO DO WE NEED COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION REFORM?

YES.

DO WE NEED TO PROTECT, IN MY VIEW, WORKERS WHO ARE DOING ESSENTIAL WORK?

AND BY THE WAY, LET'S REMEMBER, A FEW YEARS AGO, THESE WERE THE PEOPLE WHO WE CALLED ESSENTIAL WORKERS DURING COVID.

THEY PUT THEIR LIVES ON THE LINE AND SOMETIMES DIED KEEPING THE ECONOMY GOING, BECAUSE THEY WERE DOING THE DIRTIEST, MOST DANGEROUS WORK IN THIS COUNTRY.

SO WE HAD TO DEAL WITH IMMIGRATION BROADLY WITH COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION REFORM.

WE HAVE FAILED ON THAT.

DEMOCRATS, REPUBLICANS HAVE FAILED ON THAT FOR MANY, MANY YEARS.

WE NEED, RIGHT NOW, TO COME UP WITH SOME WAY TO PROTECT THESE WORKERS WHILE MAINTAINING THE ECONOMY.

TRUMP WANTS TO THROW THEM ALL OUT, FIND THE PRICE OF FOOD WILL DOUBLE OR TRIPLE.

GOD KNOWS WHAT'LL HAPPEN TO NURSING HOMES IN THIS COUNTRY.

SO WE NEED A RATIONAL, HUMANE SOLUTION, NOT HAVING PEOPLE WITH MASKS ON THEM THROWING PEOPLE INTO VANS AND TRANSPORTING THEM TO GOD KNOWS WHAT COUNTRY.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU, SENATOR.

NOW, RUSSIA CONTINUES TO RELENTLESSLY POUND UKRAINE FROM THE SKIES, CONDUCTING LARGE- SCALE ATTACKS ON THE CAPITAL FOR TWO NIGHTS IN A ROW.

IT COMES AS TRUMP MAKES A U- TURN, VOICING FRUSTRATION AT GOUNON, AND RESUMING WEAPONS SHIPMENTS TO UKRAINE AFTER THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT PAUSED THEM LAST WEEK.

BUT THE KREMLIN SAYS IT'S TAKING TRUMP'S ANGER IN STRIDE.

MATTHEW CHANCE HAS THE DETAILS.

>> ACROSS KREMLIN CONTROLLED TELEVISION, OUTRAGE.

AND A FRUSTRATED PRESIDENT TRUMP'S REMARKS ABOUT VLADIMIR PUTIN.

AFTER MONTHS OF FAWNING COVERAGE OF THE U. S. PRESIDENT IN RUSSIA, IT'S NOW TURNING HOSTILE AMID U. S. THREATS OF NEW SANCTIONS AND MILITARY AID FOR UKRAINE.

THREATENING RUSSIA IS POINTLESS, THE STATE TV ANCHOR REMINDS HER VIEWERS.

IT WAS THESE UNUSUALLY CRITICAL REMARKS THAT SHOCKED MANY RUSSIANS WHO ARE USE TO PRAISE FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP.

>> TRUMP WAS FIRST OUR FRIEND WHO WOULD GIVE US UKRAINE, SAYS THIS RUSSIAN OFFICIAL, THEN IS AN ENEMY WHO WILL IMPOSE SANCTIONS, THEN A FRIEND AGAIN.

FOR ITS PART, THE KREMLIN HAS PLAYED DOWN ANY SUGGESTION THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP'S CRITICAL OUTBURST HAS HAD MUCH IMPACT.

WE'RE TAKING IT QUITE COLDLY, THE KREMLIN SPOKESMAN, DIMITRI PASCAL, TOLD REPORTERS ON A CONFERENCE CALL, ADDING THAT TRUMP IN GENERAL TENDS TO USE A FAIRLY TOUGH STYLE AND EXPRESSIONS.

BUT BACK ON STATE TELEVISION, INFLUENTIAL VOICES ARE FAR LESS DIPLOMATIC, WARNING OF DIRE CONSEQUENCES, OF A RENEWED FALLOUT BETWEEN RUSSIA AND THE U. S. .

TRUMP IS BRINGING A THIRD WORLD WORK CLOSER WITH ALL OF THIS, WARNS A PROMINENT PROGRAM AND PRESENTER, EVEN THOUGH TRUMP SAID HIS MAIN TASK, HE ADDS, WAS TO PREVENT EXACTLY THAT.

>> NOW, OVER 1000 IRANIANS WERE KILLED DURING ISRAEL'S 12 DAY BOMBING CAMPAIGN.

AMONG ITS TARGETS, THE NOTORIOUS EVIN PRISON IN TEHRAN, WHERE OPPOSITION FIGURES AND POLITICAL PRISONERS ARE ALSO LOCKED UP.

IT'S WHERE ALEXIS WAS HELD WHEN HE SPOKE TO US A FEW YEARS AGO TO PLEAD FOR HIS RELEASE.

AND NOW, WE'RE LEARNING MORE ABOUT THE TRUE DEVASTATION OF THE STRIKE AND WHO DIED THERE, AND ALSO THE CONSEQUENCES OF THOSE BOMBINGS.

A CRACKDOWN ON DISSENT AND A POTENTIAL STRENGTHENING OF THE REGIME'S POSITION.

LET'S BRING IN --OF THE NEW YORK TIMES.

SHE HAS COVERED IRAN FOR SO MANY YEARS, AND SHE JOINS ME NOW FROM NEW YORK.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, CHRISTIANE.

>> SO LET'S TALK ABOUT THE BIG PICTURE.

YOU KNOW, CLEARLY, BOTH THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL AND MAYBE SOME IRANIANS INSIDE AND OUT HELPED THAT AMONGST OTHER THINGS THERE WOULD BE SOME KIND OF WEAKENING OF THE REGIME AND MADE BE REGIME CHANGE.

I MEAN, EVERYTHING I READ NOW SEEKS TO THE EXACT OPPOSITE.

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING ABOUT THE CRACKDOWN?

>> WELL, WHAT, WHAT, WHAT WE'RE HEARING FROM BOTH OFFICIALS AND FROM ORDINARY IRANIANS AND PEOPLE IN IRAN IS, IS THAT THERE IS REALLY NO SIGNS OF THE REGIME COLLAPSING.

ALTHOUGH IT'S BEEN WEAKENED, IT'S MILITARY COMMAND BASE WAS ASSASSINATED, THE COMMANDERS, IT'S SUSTAINED SOME SEVERE BLOWS TO ITS MILITARY AND NUCLEAR PROGRAM, BUT THE SYSTEM IS STILL INTACT, AND WHAT TENDS TO HAPPEN AFTER EPISODES LIKE THIS, PARTICULARLY IN A STATE WHERE IRANIANS FEEL LIKE THEY'RE STILL IN A STATE OF WAR AND A PAUSE IN THE CONFLICT, IS THAT THEY, THEY TRY TO SORT OF TIGHTEN THE NOOSE AND CRACKDOWN.

ALL OVER TEHRAN AND IN BIG CITIES, THERE ARE CHECK POINTS EVERYWHERE, THEY'RE SEARCHING VEHICLES, THEY'RE LOOKING AT PEOPLE'S PHONES, THEY ARE CRACKING DOWN ON DISSIDENTS AND ARRESTING LOTS OF PEOPLE THAT THEY SUSPECT OF EITHER DISSENT OR BEING SPIES FOR ISRAEL.

SO WE'RE SEEING A SENSE OF THAT.

BUT ALSO WHAT DIDN'T HAPPEN, AND I THINK THIS IS NOTEWORTHY, TO YOUR POINT ABOUT REGIME CHANGE, IS THAT I THINK THERE, THERE WERE SOME PEOPLE IN IRAN'S OPPOSITION, THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL, THAT THOUGHT PERHAPS IF THERE'S, THERE'S MILITARY STRIKES ON IRAN, PEOPLE ARE GOING TO RISE UP, THERE'S GOING TO BE PROTESTS AND A DOMESTIC CHALLENGE.

BUT WE'VE BEEN KIND OF THE OPPOSITE, CHRISTIANE.

WE'VE SEEN PEOPLE REALLY COALESCING AROUND ONE ANOTHER.

IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY AGREE OR LIKE THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC, BUT THERE'S ALSO BEEN A REJECTION OF WAR AS A MEANS TO FREEDOM OR DEMOCRACY.

SO THAT'S KIND OF THE, THE MOOD THAT I'VE PICKED UP ON IN MY REPORTING.

>> SO KAREN KRAMER, YOU, YOU KNOW OF HER, PROBABLY, THE DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER OF HUMAN RIGHTS IN IRAN, HAS WRITTEN AN OP-ED FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES, AND SHE SAID THE IRANIAN REGIME REELING FROM THE HUMILIATING LOSSES IT SUFFERED AT THE HANDS OF ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES APPEARS TO BE USING THE TRAUMA OF LAST MONTH'S SHORT BUT INTENSE WAR TO SETTLE DOMESTIC SCORES AND REASSERT ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY THROUGH FEAR .

SHE REPORTS OF, YOU KNOW, MASS ARRESTS, EXECUTION, LACK OF DUE PROCESS.

SO THAT GOES TO THE HEART OF SOME OF WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

BUT WHAT DO YOU KNOW SPECIFICALLY ABOUT, FOR INSTANCE, THE SUPREME LEADER?

HE'S BEEN OUT FOR THE FIRST TIME IN PUBLIC OVER THIS PAST WEEKEND.

THE ADMIRAL, WHO WAS ACTUALLY PREVIOUSLY A MAJOR MILITARY FIGURE, AND NOW WAS LEADING THE NUCLEAR NEGOTIATION, HE SURVIVED WHERE ISRAEL SAID THEY'VE KILLED HIM.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY'RE TAKING, THOSE FIGURES, FROM THEIR SURVIVAL?

IS THIS A WIN FOR THEM, JUST THAT THEY SURVIVED?

>> THEY'RE PORTRAYING IT THAT WAY, CERTAINLY.

I THINK THAT WE SHOULD ALSO NOTE THAT THERE IS A CLIMATE OF FEAR IN IRAN, AND ALSO AMONG OFFICIALS.

MR. KHOMEINI'S BEEN, YOU KNOW, IN A, IN A BUNKER, NOT REALLY PRESENT IN HIS, SINCE THE WAR STARTED, IN HIS COMPOUND, AND HE MADE A, AN APPEARANCE THAT NIGHT FOR A RELIGIOUS CEREMONY AND THEN RETREATED BACK TO WHERE HE HAD BEEN SHELTERING, FEARING ASSASSINATIONS.

SO I THINK THAT THERE'S STILL REAL CONCERN THAT THERE MIGHT STILL BE COVERT ASSASSINATIONS OR ATTEMPTS ON IRANIAN OFFICIALS, BUT ALSO, I THINK THAT THESE CAMEO APPEARANCES WHERE A PRESIDENT COMES IN A STREET PROTEST ORTREND 25 COMES OUT , DOES AN INTERVIEW, THESE, I THINK, ARE ALL MEANT TO SIGNAL TO THE WEST, TO ISRAEL, TO THE UNITED STATES THAT, YOU KNOW, EVEN, WE EVEN SURVIVED, ISLAMIC REPUBLICS ATTACKED, AND WE SURVIVED A WAR WITH CONSIDERABLY MORE POWERFUL MILITARY FORCES.

SO I THINK THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE REGIME IS TRYING TO PROJECT, A SENSE OF NORMALCY, ALTHOUGH NOTHING IS REALLY NORMAL, AND, AND SURVIVAL.

>> AND I WANT TO GET TO YOUR LONG REPORT ABOUT WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED AT EVIN PRISON.

I MEAN, RIGHT, SO LET'S JUST GO BACK.

ISRAEL BOMBED WHAT IT SAID WAS THE GATES, AND CLEARLY IT TURNS OUT THAT THE DAMAGE WAS SO MUCH GRAVER THAN THAT.

AMONGST OTHER THINGS, IT PORTRAYED IT AS A SYMBOLIC GESTURE TO FREE, YOU KNOW, DISSIDENTS AND, AND REGIME OPPONENTS.

BUT CERTAINLY, AS WE MENTIONED IN OUR INSTRUCTION TO YOU, OUR FRIEND, WHO IS AN IRANIAN AMERICAN HOSTAGE THERE FOR NEARLY EIGHT YEARS, HE, AND ALSO --A NOBEL LAUREATE WHO SPENT DECADES IN AND OUT OF THERE, WROTE, ALSO, ABOUT THE PEOPLE HE KNEW WHO HAD BEEN KILLED, WHO HE HAD, YOU KNOW, BEEN IN THE, IN THE SAME PRISON WITH.

AND YOU'VE WRITTEN SOME REALLY DEVASTATING REPORTING, ALONG WITH YOUR COLLEAGUES.

SO GIVE US THE, THE BROAD PICTURE OF WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

WHO ACTUALLY BORE THE BRUNT OF THAT IS REALLY STRIKE ON EVIN?

>> I THINK THAT THE, THE REAL VICTIMS OF THE ISRAELI ATTACK ON EVIN WERE THE PRISONERS WHO WERE CAPTIVE THERE AND HAD NO WAY OUT, AND THEIR SITUATION HAS CONSIDERABLY GOTTEN WORSE, AND THEIR FAMILIES AND ADMINISTRATIVE STAFF AND, AND PEOPLE WHO WERE PRESENT THERE.

I, I'LL JUST DO A RECAP.

ON JUNE 23rd, ISRAEL SAID IT SYMBOLICALLY, IN QUOTATIONS, ATTACKED THE EVIN PRISON, WHICH HAS BEEN LONG A SYMBOL OF SORT OF OPPRESSION AND CRACKDOWNS ON POLITICAL DISSENT.

BUT OUR INVESTIGATION, FORENSIC GROUPS THAT DO FORENSIC INVESTIGATIONS, WITH SORT OF PASTE TOGETHER THAT THERE WERE SIX STRIKES ON THE PRISON.

FOUR OF THEM DIRECT HITS ON STRUCTURES WITHIN THE PRISON.

THE VISITATION CENTER, WHICH WAS FULL OF FAMILIES, SOCIAL WORKERS, PEOPLE VISITING, PUTTING DALE TO, YOU KNOW, PLACING BALE, IT ALSO HOUSED THE PROSECUTOR'S OFFICE, AND HE WAS KILLED AT THE ADMINISTRATIVE BUILDING WHERE ALL THE ADMINISTRATIVE STAFF AND THE BUSINESS OF THE PRISON WAS THERE, THE PRISON'S HOSPITAL, 47 BED CLINIC AND HOSPITAL, AND A, THE 209 WARD, WHICH IS WHERE POLITICAL PRISONERS WERE HELD.

SO AMONG THE, THE OFFICIAL TALLIES, 80 PEOPLE WERE KILLED IN THAT STRIKE, AND LOTS OF PEOPLE WERE INJURED.

WE'VE ALSO HEARD FROM LAWYERS THAT THERE ARE, YOU KNOW, MAYBE OVER 100 PEOPLE WHO ARE STILL MISSING, INCLUDING THE TRANSGENDER INMATE AT EVIN, WHICH IS REALLY TRAGIC, YOU KNOW?

THEY HAD THEIR OWN BOARD, IT WAS IN A BASEMENT IN ONE OF THE WINGS AND THAT BUILDING HAS COLLAPSED, AND ACCORDING TO A LAWYER AND AN ACTIVIST I SPOKE TO IN IRAN, THE, THE TRANSGENDER PRISONERS ARE MISSING.

AND THEY ARE PRESUMED DEAD, ALTHOUGH THEY'RE, THEY'RE NOT CONFIRMED, BUT THEY'RE PRESUMED DEAD, BECAUSE SOME TIME HAS NOW PASSED, AND WE DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON.

SO EVEN DISSIDENTS, EVEN FAMILIES OF THE PRISONERS, AND EVEN PRISONERS THAT, IN EVIN THAT WE INTERVIEWED, WERE SAYING THAT THIS, THAT ISRAEL'S ATTACK ON EVIN , TO THEM, IT FEELS LIKE THEY WERE, THAT THERE WAS NO REGARDS FOR THE LIFE OF PRISONERS WHO WERE THERE OR THE FAMILIES, BECAUSE IT HAPPENED AT SORT OF A PEAK HOUR ON A WORKDAY.

NOW, WHAT HAPPENED, FAR FROM PRISONERS BEING FREE OR LIBERATED OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT, WHAT HAPPENED WAS ACTUALLY TO, TO THE PRISONERS, WAS EQUALLY TRAGIC, BECAUSE SECURITY FORCES MOVED IN, THE PRISON HAD SUSTAINED SEVERE DAMAGES, A LOT OF THEM WERE INJURED, WINDOWS HAD SHATTERED, WHILE HAD CRUMBLED, AND THEY WERE TRYING TO HELP AND DIG THROUGH THE RUBBLES AND FIND SURVIVORS AND FIND THE PEOPLE INJURED, BUT THEN SECURITY GUARDS MOVED IN HOLDING GUNS AT THEM AND PLACING THEM IN A HALF COLLAPSED BUILDING, THE MEN AND THE WOMEN, SEPARATE, AND THEY WERE THEN, THE MEN WERE SHACKLED IN PAIRS, THEIR HANDS AND FEET TIED TOGETHER, AT AROUND MIDNIGHT, AND FORCED TO MARCH THROUGH THE RUBBLE, THROUGH THE DEAD BODIES TO BUSES THAT WERE EVACUATING THEM TO ANOTHER PRISON.

THE WOMEN WERE TRANSPORTED EXACTLY IN THE SAME WAY, SHACKLED, THE NEXT MORNING.

SOME OF THE PRISONERS GAVE US TESTIMONIES OF WHAT HAD HAPPENED TO THEM, AND THEY'VE SHARED THEM ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

THEY SAID THAT, YOU KNOW, THE HUMILIATION, THE SUFFERING WAS REALLY EXTREME.

AND, YOU KNOW, CHRISTIANE, WHAT I KEEP HEARING , AND EVEN -- TOLD ME, AND I QUOTED HIM IN MY PIECE, IS THAT, YOU KNOW, THE EVIN STRIKE SORT OF HAS COME TO SYMBOL WHAT A LOT OF IRANIANS SAY THAT THEY FEEL LIKE THEY ARE CAUGHT BETWEEN A PULSE OF VICIOUS FORCES, THE, THE REGIME THAT HARMS THEM AND CRACKS DOWN ON POLITICAL DISSENT AND PUNISHES THEM, AND THE ISRAELI MILITARY.

AND AS --PUT IT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEY'RE STUCK BETWEEN, YOU KNOW, TWO BLADES, AND HAVE NO WAY OUT.

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S SUCH AN AWFUL STORY, AND IT'S SO RESONANT, OF COURSE, OF THE UNBELIEVABLY UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES OF WHAT, YOU KNOW, OF WHAT CERTAIN, CERTAIN GOVERNMENTS DO IN THE BELIEF THAT THEY'RE DOING SOMETHING ELSE.

I MEAN, IT'S REALLY, THE, THE LOSS OF LIFE THERE AND THE BACKLASH IS, IS REALLY AWFUL.

I WANT TO JUST QUICKLY END BY ASKING YOU WHAT YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN, BECAUSE, OF COURSE, ALL OF THIS WAS SUPPOSEDLY TO, YOU KNOW, OBLITERATE, IN TRUMP'S WORDS, THE, THE NUCLEAR PROGRAM.

SO AN IRANIAN OFFICIAL SAYS THE U. S. HAS NOW SENT A ROUND METHOD IS TO RESTART THE NEGOTIATIONS, ACCORDING TO CNN REPORTING, BUT THE FOREIGN MINISTER HAS PUBLISHED AN OP-ED IN THE FINANCIAL TIMES.

HE SAYS, ALTHOUGH IRAN HAS COME IN RECENT DAYS, RECEIVE MESSAGES INDICATING THE U. S. MAY BE READY TO RETURN TO NEGOTIATIONS, HOW CAN WE TRUST ANY FURTHER ENGAGEMENT?

AND HE SAYS, IRAN REMAINS INTERESTED IN DIPLOMACY, BUT WE HAVE GOOD REASON TO HAVE DOUBTS ABOUT FURTHER DIALOGUE.

IF THERE'S A DESIRE TO RESOLVE THIS AMICABLY, THE U. S. SHOULD SHOW GENUINE READINESS FOR AN EXTRA BLUE COURT.

WASHINGTON SHOULD ALSO KNOW THAT HIS ACTIONS IN RECENT WEEKS HAVE CHANGE THE SITUATION.

SO WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS?

FIRST, DEFIANCE.

I MEAN, HOW MUCH LEGROOM DO THEY HAVE FOR DEFIANCE?

AND, B, ON THIS SUBSTANCE, ARE YOU HEARING ANYTHING ABOUT TALKS AND A RETURN TO THE BARGAINING TABLE?

>> WELL, I THINK, I THINK THERE ARE, THERE ARE CONVERSATIONS AND BACK CHANNELS GOING ON TO TRY TO RESUME THE COMEDY, THE DIPLOMACY CHANNEL BECAUSE I THINK EVEN THOUGH IRAN IS, IS, IS TAKING THIS DEFIANT STAND AND SAYING, WELL, WE NEED SOME TRUST BUILDING MEASURES TO RETURN, THE REALITY FOR IRAN IS STILL THAT IS UNDER SEVERE ECONOMIC SANCTIONS, IS HAVING, YOU KNOW, A CRISIS OF ENERGY, IT'S HAVING A CRISIS IN ITS ECONOMY, AND NOW A CRISIS IN ITS SECURITY.

WITH THIS MASSIVE --OF ISRAELI SPIES INSIDE THE COUNTRY, AND IT'S NOW BEEN WEAKENED MILITARILY, BOTH AT HOME AND IN THE REGION.

SO IF YOU LOOK AT THE REALITY FOR THE, FOR THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT, IT REALLY HAS TO COME BACK TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE IF IT WANTS SOME RELIEF FROM THOSE EXTERNAL THREATS AND THE SANCTIONS.

SO I THINK THAT THEY'RE POSTURING, BUT IT, IT SEEMS THAT IT'S INEVITABLE THAT THEY HAVE TO COME BACK AND TRY TO RESOLVE THINGS DIPLOMATICALLY.

>> AS ALWAYS, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THAT REPORTING.

NOW, THEMES OF OTHER DEVASTATION AND GRIEF AT A GAZA HOSPITAL WHERE AN ISRAELI STRIKE KILLED 15 PEOPLE ON THURSDAY.

THE MARTYRS HOSPITAL SAYS 8 OF THOSE WERE CHILDREN, REPORTEDLY WHILE CARING FOR VITAL AID.

THE YOUNGEST VICTIM WAS JUST TWO YEARS OLD.

THE IDF CLAIMS IT WAS TARGETING A HAMAS MILITANT.

AMID STRUGGLING CEASE-FIRE TALKS, THE EU'S TOP DIPLOMAT SAYS ISRAEL AGREES TO EXPAND HUMANITARIAN ACCESS TO GAZA, BUT THIS MAY BE TOO LITTLE, TOO LATE FOR SO MANY.

--HAS THIS REPORT.

>> FOUR BABIES CRAMPED INTO ONE ICU CAUGHT.

THE STARK REALITY OF TRYING TO KEEP PRETERM BABIES ALIVE IN A WAR ZONE WHERE FORMULA, MEDICINE, AND FUEL HAVE VIRTUALLY RUN OUT.

>> BUT WE HAVE NO INCUBATORS TO KEEP THIS BABY INSIDE THE INCUBATOR, SO --MORE THAN ONE WEEK IN THE -- THERE ALSO, THIS IS A BABY IN RISK OF COMPLICATION BECAUSE OF THE TEMPERATURE CONTROL AND THE RISK OF GETTING INFECTION.

>> 12 INCUBATORS IN THIS ICU WITH 22 CASES OF EXTREME PRETERM BABIES.

DR. SAYS THEY HAVE LOST BABIES WHEN THE GENERATORS BREAK DOWN.

BABY --WAS BORN THREE MONTHS EARLY, WEIGHING HALF A KILO.

SHE NEEDED TWO MONTHS IN AN IN VADER.

>> WE ALL WANT OUR CHILDREN TO BE SAFE, HER MOTHER SAYS.

IF THE POWER IS CUT OFF, THESE CHILDREN WILL BE IN A DIRE SITUATION.

WE NEED ELECTRICITY TO POWER THE INCUBATORS.

HOSPITALS ACROSS GAZA AND THE UNITED NATIONS WORN FUEL SHORTAGES ARE AT A CRITICAL POINT.

MEDICAL COMPLEX WARNS IS 24 HOURS AWAY FROM DISASTER IF THE POWER GOES OUT.

IT SAYS DOZENS OF PATIENTS FACE CERTAIN DEATH.

THIS KIDNEY DIALYSIS CENTER HAS BEEN CLOSED.

IT CAN ONLY REOPEN ONCE MORE FUEL IS DELIVERED.

WE HAVE ASKED THE ISRAELI AGENCY IN CHARGE OF COORDINATING AID DELIVERIES INTO GAZA ABOUT THE ACUTE SHORTAGE OF FUEL FOR HOSPITALS.

AND THE DAILY FIGHT FOR FOOD BECOMES EVER MORE DESPERATE.

>> DAILY, I'M FIGHTING THIS KIND OF STARVATION, AND I BARELY GET ONE MEAL EVERY TWO DAYS.

>> CHAOS AND DESPERATION IS CLEAR TO SEE AT THIS GAZA CITY SOUP KITCHEN.

FEAR ANOTHER DAY MAY PASS WITH NO FOOD FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES.

IN THE STRUGGLE, ONE GIRL SPILLS BOILING SOUP ON HER HANDS.

SCREAMS OF SHOCK AND PAIN AS SHE NURSES THE BURNS.

BEYOND HER INJURY, SHE HAS LOST HER FOOD.

A CEASE-FIRE TALKS CONTINUE IN DOUGH HARR, DOZENS CONTINUE TO BE KILLED DAILY ACROSS GAZA.

THIS THE AFTERMATH OF A STRIKE ON A TENT CITY IN GAZA CITY.

TALK OF PROGRESS IN QATAR HAS NO IMPACT ON LIFE IN GAZA.

>> MORE THAN MISERABLE.

MORE THAN STARVATION.

MORE THAN GENOCIDE.

WE ARE REALLY LIVING IN HELL, REALLY.

>> A CEASE-FIRE COULD NOT COME SOON ENOUGH , ALSO, FOR THE GAZA RESIDENTS AND FOR THOSE HOSTAGES WHO ARE STILL THERE.

NOW, A DIRE WARNING FROM HISTORY.

> >> NEVER HAS OUR FUTURE BEEN MORE UNPREDICTABLE.

NEVER HAVE WE DEPENDED SO MUCH ON POLITICAL FORCES THAT CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO FOLLOW THE RULES OF COMMON SENSE.

FORCES THAT LOOK LIKE SHEER INSANITY IF JUDGED BY THE STANDARDS OF OTHERS.

>> THE STRIKING WORDS OF HANNAH BEZOS, ONE OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL POLITICAL THINKERS OF THE 20th CENTURY, AFTER BEING FORCED TO FLEE HER NATIVE GERMANY DURING THE NAZI PERSECUTION OF , SHE FOUND REFUGE IN THE UNITED DATE, WRITING ABOUT THE DANGERS OF AUTHORITARIANISM.

SHE COINED THE PHRASE BANALITY OF EVIL, COVERING THE TRIAL OF ADULT EICHMANN, THE ARCHITECT OF THE HOLOCAUST.

JEFF DEVER IS AN EMMY AWARD- WINNING FILMMAKER AND CODIRECTOR OF THE NEW DOCUMENTARY, HANNAH ARENDT, FACING TYRANNY, AND HE JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN TO TALK ABOUT HIS FILM.

>> X, CHRISTIANE.

IN SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> OH, IT'S A REAL PLEASURE.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, MICHELLE.

>> PHILOSOPHY MAJORS MIGHT KNOW ABOUT HANNAH ARENDT, MAYBE PEOPLE WHO STUDIED THE RISE OF NAZI GERMANY.

SHE'S JUST A FASCINATING PERSONAL STORY WHICH PEOPLE MAY KNOW FRAGMENTS OF, BUT MIGHT NOT HAVE, YOU KNOW, KNOW THE WHOLE STORY.

SO GIVE US, JUST GIVE US THE BASICS.

GIVE US THE BASICS OF HER LIFE, YEAH.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

HANNAH ARENDT, BORN IN HANOVER, GERMANY, IN 1906, A BRILLIANT, PRECOCIOUS, RAMBUNCTIOUS, FUNNY KID WHO STARTS STUDYING PHILOSOPHY, STARTS READING KANT, NIETZSCHE, AT THE AGE OF 12 AND 14 YEARS OLD.

SO SHE'S THIS BRILLIANT KID.

AND SHE GOES TO THE UNIVERSITY TO STUDY PHILOSOPHY.

1924, RIGHT AFTER WORLD WAR I, WHEN THINGS ARE REALLY CHANGING IN GERMANY, YOU KNOW?

AFTER WORLD WAR I, GERMANY HAD LOST THE WAR.

THE ALLIES HAD MADE GERMANY PAY REPARATIONS.

THEY DEMILITARIZED GERMANY, AND PEOPLE WERE REALLY ANGRY.

THERE WAS UNEMPLOYMENT, THERE WAS HYPERINFLATION.

BUT SHE BASICALLY WHAT HAPPENS IS, SHE GOES TO BERLIN IN 1929 AFTER SHE GETS HER DOCTORATE DEGREES, AND SHE SEES THINGS CHANGING IN GERMANY .

SHE GETS MARRIED TO A NICE JEWISH GUY IN SEPTEMBER OF 1929.

OCTOBER '29, THE STOCK MARKET CRASHES, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, EVERYTHING GOES HAYWIRE, NOT JUST IN GERMANY, BUT ALL OVER THE WORLD.

PEOPLE ARE UNEMPLOYED, PEOPLE ARE ANGRY.

WHAT'S HAPPENING?

AND ADULT HITLER, WHO HAD PUBLISHED MEIN KAMPF IN 1925 WHEN SHE WAS IN UNIVERSITY, AND THAT WAS KIND OF THIS BLUEPRINT FOR YOU KNOW, WHAT HE DOES IN WORLD WAR II AND THE HOLOCAUST, AND HE'D STARTS BLAMING THE JEWS AND IMMIGRANTS WHO ARE COMING IN TO GERMANY LOOKING FOR JOBS.

AND SHE SEES THIS.

SHE'S EXPERIENCING IT.

AND SHE JOINS THE RESISTANCE AFTER THE REICHSTAG FIRE IN 1933 TO FIGHT HITLER.

TO RESIST, AFTER HE DECLARES MARTIAL LAW.

SHE GETS ARRESTED.

SHE ESCAPES TO FRANCE.

SHE HELPS JEWISH KIDS ESCAPE FROM GERMANY TO GO TO WHAT WAS THEN PALESTINE.

AND AFTER GERMANY ATTACKS FRANCE, SHE GETS IN TURN, LIKE OTHER GERMANS, AND ESCAPES AGAIN AFTER THE CAMP FALLS, AFTER FRANCE FALLS TO GERMANY.

AND SHE AND HER, ACTUALLY, AT THE TIME, SECOND HUSBAND, ESCAPE TO THE UNITED STATES IN 1941.

AND IN '43, AFTER SHE LEARNS ABOUT AUSCHWITZ AND THE HOLOCAUST, SHE STARTS ASKING THE QUESTION, WHAT WAS GOING ON?

WHAT HAPPENED?

HOW DID THIS HAPPEN?

AND SHE BEGINS TO WRITE THIS BOOK, ORIGINS OF TOTALITARIANISM.

>> FINALLY, WE GET TO '43, AND YOU START TO SEE A PATTERN.

SHE STARTS TO SEE A BOOK.

>> PROPAGANDA PROVIDED THE FOUNDATION FOR BUILDING TOTALITARIAN POWER.

THE NAZI TRANSLATED THE PROPAGANDA LIKE A MOVEMENT INTO A FUNCTIONING REALITY.

TOTALITARIANISM REPLACES ALL FIRST-RATE TALENTS WITH CRACKPOTS AND FOOLS WHOSE LACK OF INTELLIGENCE AND CREATIVITY INSTILLS THE BEST GUARANTEE OF THEIR LOYALTY, AND NEEDED A -- TO DEFEND ITSELF.

>> I JUST FIND HER SO FASCINATING, BECAUSE, FIRST OF ALL, TO BE A WOMAN IN PHILOSOPHY AT A TIME WHEN, A WOMAN OF LETTERS AT A TIME WHEN THAT WAS DIFFICULT TO BE.

AND THEN TO HAVE BEEN ARRESTED TWICE, TO HAVE BEEN INTERNED TWICE, AND THEN TO ESCAPE BOTH TIMES TO SOMEHOW KIND OF GET OUT, TO HAVE SURVIVED AS A GERMAN JEWS, TO HAVE SURVIVED THE HOLOCAUST, TO HAVE FIGURED OUT HOW TO SURVIVE IN THAT ERA, HER EXPERIENCES WERE INCREDIBLE.

BUT, BUT TELL ME MORE ABOUT HOW SHE WAS SORT OF, HER WORK WAS VIEWED AT THE TIME.

>> SO IN 1951, SHE PUBLISHES ORIGINS OF TOTALITARIANISM, HER VERY FIRST BOOK, ABOUT, HOW DID HITLER AND STALIN COME TO BE?

HOW DID, NOT JUST THOUSANDS, BUT MILLIONS OF PEOPLE SUBSCRIBE TO A CULT LEADER, YOU KNOW?

EDUCATED PEOPLE SUBSCRIBE TO THE LIES OF HITLER.

AND IT'S VERY WELL RECEIVED.

AND THERE WAS SOME MIXED REVIEWS IN IT, BUT, YOU KNOW, THE THING IS IS IT WAS A GROUNDBREAKING BOOK, BECAUSE, REALLY, IT SETS THE MOLD FOR WHAT HAPPENS LATER.

IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT ADOLF HITLER.

IT'S ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE, GOOD PEOPLE, EDUCATED PEOPLE, START SUBSCRIBING TO THE LIES OF A CULT LEADER.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS SHE WRITES ABOUT IN THAT BOOK IS ABOUT LONELINESS.

YOU KNOW, VIVEK MURTHY, THE SURGEON GENERAL IN 2023, PUT OUT A REPORT ABOUT LONELINESS.

AND HE SAID IT WAS AN EPIDEMIC OF LONELINESS, AND IT WAS A HEALTH ISSUE, RIGHT?

WELL, SHE OBSERVES THAT AFTER WORLD WAR I, PEOPLE IN GERMANY FELT DISCONNECTED TO THEIR, TO THEIR LIVES, DISCONNECTED FROM SOCIETY.

YOU KNOW, PEOPLE HAD LOST THEIR JOBS, PEOPLE FELT THEY WEREN'T BEING TREATED WELL.

THEY RETREATED, IN ESSENCE, AND THEY WERE LOOKING FOR MEANING IN THEIR LIVES.

AND ALONG COMES ADOLF HITLER, WHO SAYS , I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU YOUR JOBS BACK AGAIN, YOU KNOW?

I'M GOING TO MAKE GERMANY GREAT AGAIN.

I'M GOING TO REBUILD THE MILITARY AGAIN.

AND HE GETS THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE TO BELIEVE HIM, EVEN THOUGH MANY PEOPLE KNOW THE GUY'S LION.

BUT THEY FEEL, YOU KNOW WHAT?

HE'S GOING TO HELP GERMANY AGAIN.

AND, AND SHE WRITES ABOUT THAT AS A KEY INGREDIENT THAT LED PEOPLE TO SUBSCRIBE TO A TOTALITARIAN GOVERNMENT.

LONELINESS.

SO AFTER THE BOOK IS PUBLISHED, SHE BEGINS A TEACHING CAREER.

SHE ALSO TEACHES AT THE NEW SCHOOL IN NEW YORK.

AND SHE REALLY STARTS TO OBSERVE THE STUDENT PROTEST MOVEMENT IN THE '60S AND '70S.

BUT I, YOU KNOW, I'M JUMPING AHEAD >> LET ME, LET ME GO BACK.

JUST FOR PEOPLE, AGAIN, WHO HAVE NOT FOLLOWED THIS OR DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS AS CLOSELY, WHO IS ADOLF EICHMANN, AND HOW WAS IT THAT HE, THAT HE WENT TO TRIAL IN JERUSALEM IN THE '60S?

WHAT HAPPENED THERE?

>> RIGHT, SO I DON'T LIKE HIM AND WAS IN CHARGE OF TRANSPORTING PEOPLE, HE WAS IN CHARGE OF TRANSPORTATION DURING THE THIRD REICH, TRANSPORTING PEOPLE, TRANSECTS, OTHERS, FROM TO CONCENTRATION CAMPS, TO EXTERMINATION CAMPS.

HE WAS, AS ONE OF OUR ADVISERS SAID, ONE OF HITLER'S CHIEF LOGICIANS, RIGHT?

HE WOULD FIGURE OUT, YOU KNOW, THE TIMETABLES AND TRAINS AND ALL OF THAT TO GET PEOPLE FROM HERE TO THERE, AND THEY WOULD BE KILLED, BASICALLY, RIGHT?

SO, LIKE MANY OTHER NAZIS, HE ESCAPES.

HE GOES TO ARGENTINA, WHICH SEEMED TO BE A HAVEN FOR NAZIS.

IN 1960, THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT CAPTURES HIM, KIDNAPS HIM, AND BRINGS HIM BACK TO JERUSALEM TO STAND TRIAL.

AND SO SHE GOES AND SHE EXPECTS TO SEE THIS RAVING LUNATIC, THIS ANTI-SEMITE, YOU KNOW, WHO'S GOING TO BE, YOU KNOW, OFF HIS ROCKER.

AND INSTEAD, SHE SEES THIS BESPECTACLED GUY IN A SUIT, HE'S CONSTANTLY BLOWING HIS NOSE, HE'S LIKE ANY OTHER BUREAUCRAT YOU MIGHT SEE, AND HE'S SPEAKING IN CLICHES.

SHE SAYS HE'S KIND OF SPEAKING IN NAZI SPEAK.

HE, WHEN HIS QUESTION ABOUT HIS ROLE IN THE HOLOCAUST, HIS ROLE OF KILLING MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, HE SAID HE DIDN'T KILL ANYBODY.

ALL HE DID WAS HE WAS IN CHARGE OF TRANSPORTING PEOPLE FROM HERE TO THERE.

AND WHAT SHE COMES, SHE COINS THIS PHRASE, BANALITY OF EVIL, BASICALLY.

SHE WRITES A REPORT IN THE NEW YORKER CALLED ADULT EICHMANN ON TRIAL, THE BANALITY OF EVIL.

AND WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, THE BANALITY OF EVIL?

SHE'S NOT CALLING EVIL BUT NOW, BUT SHE'S BASICALLY SAYING THAT THE WORK THAT HE DID OF TRANSPORTING PEOPLE, THE COMMONPLACE WORK THAT HE DID WAS EVIL, BECAUSE SHE BASICALLY SAID BANALITY OF EVIL MEANT HE FAILED TO THINK ABOUT WHAT HE WAS DOING.

HE FAILED TO SEE THE PEOPLE HE WAS ACTUALLY SENDING TO THEIR DEATHS, AND INSTEAD, HE SAID, I WAS JUST DOING A GOOD JOB.

AND WHAT SHE WRITES ABOUT HIS HE WOULD'VE KILLED HIS OWN FATHER IF HE WAS ASKED TO DO THAT, BECAUSE HE WAS FOLLOWING THE LAWS.

HE DIDN'T THINK ABOUT WHAT HE WAS DOING.

AND WHAT, WHAT LEON BOUGHT STEIN THEN SAYS IS THAT THERE WERE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE LIKE EICHMANN.

THERE WERE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, MIDDLE-CLASS PEOPLE, EDUCATED PEOPLE, WHO ARE PARTICIPATING IN THE SYSTEM OF KILLING MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.

>> THIS PIECE WAS EXTREMELY CONTROVERSIAL.

SHE WAS HEAVILY CRITICIZED FOR IT, INCLUDING BY OTHER JEWISH THINKERS .

WHICH, CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT?

>> YEAH.

SO BASICALLY WHAT SHE SAYS, WHAT, SHE'S COVERING THIS TRIAL, AND IN ADDITION TO PUTTING EICHMANN ON TRIAL AND QUESTIONING HIM, THEY PUT ON JEWISH SURVIVORS OF THE HOLOCAUST AND QUESTIONED THEM ABOUT EICHMANN.

AND WHAT THEY FIND IS THAT EICHMANN COULD GO INTO A CITY AND HE WOULD IDENTIFY THE JEWISH LEADERS OF A .

AND HE WOULD IDENTIFY THEM, AND THEY WOULD BECOME A JEWISH COUNCIL THAT WOULD COOPERATE WITH EICHMANN, OKAY?

AND EVEN DURING THE TRIAL OF ONE MAN WHO'S TESTIFYING ABOUT THAT, SOMEBODY IN THE AUDIENCE STANDS UP AND SAYS, YOU PEOPLE, YOU, YOU, YOU DID THIS TO SAVE YOUR OWN SKIN!

SO SHE WRITES ABOUT THIS.

AND SO WHAT PEOPLE ARE OUTRAGED ABOUT IS THAT SHE, I MEAN, SHE WAS, LIKE, TOTALLY CRUCIFIED BY THE JEWISH INTELLIGENTSIA, WHO BASICALLY HAD, HELD A TRIAL IN A HOTEL.

SHE WASN'T ATTENDING, BUT THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE THERE.

WELL, THEY WERE OUTRAGED ABOUT, THEY ACCUSED HER OF SAYING THAT JEWS WERE THE ONES WHO WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE HOLOCAUST, OF KILLING JEWS, AND SHE EXONERATED EICHMANN FOR BEING BUT NOW.

AND SO SHE, BASICALLY YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THIS WAS BEING WRITTEN IN 1963, OKAY?

SO PEOPLE HADN'T FOCUSED ON THE HOLOCAUST.

THEY DIDN'T EVEN WANT TO DEAL WITH THE HOLOCAUST.

I DON'T EVEN KNOW IF THAT NAME WAS COINED AT THAT, AT THAT TIME.

AND ESSENTIALLY THE TRIAL WAS TELEVISED.

SO PEOPLE SAW THIS, THE VERY FIRST TIME, AND PEOPLE WEREN'T READY TO HEAR ABOUT THE BANALITY OF EVIL.

AND THEY WEREN'T READY TO HAVE, HAVE THEIR, THEIR SENSE OF , THE JEWISH, THE VICTIMIZATION IN THE DEATHS OF MILLIONS OF JEWS, TO HAVE JEWS BEING LABELED AS COOPERATING WITH THE NAZIS.

AND WHAT SHE WRITES ABOUT IS THAT EVERYBODY WAS SUCKED INTO THIS SYSTEM OF TOTALITARIANISM.

THE VICTIMS, THE BYSTANDERS, THE PERPETRATORS, EVERYBODY WAS SUCKED IN.

>> THE, THE FILM DOES FOCUS VERY MUCH ON HANNAH ARENDT, AND IT TELLS HER STORY.

BUT IT IS SET AGAINST THE BACKDROP OF THE CURRENT MOMENT, AND, AND WHAT SHE DID LIVE LONG ENOUGH TO SEE, YOU KNOW, THE RISE OF McCARTHYISM IN THE UNITED STATES, AND SHE SAW THE KIND OF BACKLASH AGAINST SOCIAL JUSTICE MOVEMENTS IN THE UNITED STATES.

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO TELL US ABOUT THAT?

>> WELL, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, NO ONE, NO ONE HAD COVERED, THAT I HAD SEEN, HER TIME AND EXPERIENCES IN THE UNITED STATES.

SO IN 1951, WHEN McCARTHYISM TAKES SHAPE, 1950 TO 1954, SHE IS HORRIFIED BY THAT, BECAUSE WHAT SHE WRITES AND WHAT SHE SEES IS THAT PEOPLE WERE TURNING AGAINST THEIR FELLOW AMERICANS, AND TURNING THEM IN.

THERE WAS NO DUE PROCESS.

THEY WERE BEING CALLED UP, AND THEY WERE BEING, YOU KNOW, CANCELED, OR THEY WERE BEING SHUT OUT OF JOBS.

>> ARENDT WAS ACTUALLY TEACHING AT BERKELEY, AND SHE TALKS ABOUT HOW THE ACADEMIC ENVIRONMENT ON CAMPUS WAS CHILLED, HOW PEOPLE WERE AFRAID TO LAUGH IN PUBLIC OR TO MAKE JOKES OR JUST TO SPEAK FREELY.

>> CAN YOU SEE HOW FAR THE DISINTEGRATION HAS GONE, AND WITH WHAT BREATHTAKING SPEEDED HAS OCCURRED?

AND UP TO NOW, HARDLY ANY RESISTANCE.

THE WHOLE ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY, AND, TO A LESSER EXTENT, THE UNIVERSITIES HAVE BEEN DRAGGED INTO IT.

IT ALL FUNCTIONS WITHOUT ANY FORCE, WITHOUT ANY TERROR.

THEY'RE INTRODUCING POLICE METHODS.

THEY NAME NAMES, AND, IN THIS WAY, THE INFORMANT SYSTEM IS BEING INTEGRATED INTO SOCIETY.

>> ONE ELEMENT THAT SHE SEES UNFOLDING IS THE THREAT TO DE- NATURALIZE NATURALIZED CITIZENS.

>> AND IN THE 1960S UNFOLDS, AND SHE SEES THE STUDENT PROTEST MOVEMENT AGAINST THE VIETNAM WAR.

SO SHE REALLY SUPPORTS THAT, BECAUSE SHE WRITES ABOUT THAT PEOPLE HAVE THE POWER TO CHANGE IF THEY COME TOGETHER.

SO SHE'S A BIG BELIEVER IN THE CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE MOVEMENT.

BUT THEN WHEN THE PENTAGON PAPERS COME OUT IN JUNE OF 1971 , AND SHE SEES THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAD BEEN LYING ABOUT THE VIETNAM WAR FOR DECADES, NOT JUST THROUGH THE NIXON ADMINISTRATION, AND SHE COMES TO THE CONCLUSION THEY LIED ABOUT THE VIETNAM WAR JUST TO SAVE FACE.

BASICALLY, THEY KNEW THEY WERE LOSING, BUT THEY WANTED TO PROJECT AN IMAGE THAT THEY WERE WINNING.

AND THEN WHEN NIXON AND WATERGATE TAKES HOLD, ONE YEAR LATER IN, IN JUNE OF 1972, SHE BECOMES VERY SCARED, BECAUSE SHE SAYS THAT THE FOUNDING FATHERS NEVER BELIEVED THAT TYRANNY COULD ARISE OUT OF THE EXECUTIVE OFFICE.

BECAUSE THEY CREATED A SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT, THREE EQUAL BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT.

SHE SAYS, AFTER NIXON, SHE REALIZES THAT TYRANNY, IF IT'S GOING TO ARISE, IT'S GOING TO ARISE FROM THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, OF THE POWERS OF THE EXECUTIVE WANTS TO TAKE.

SO WHEN YOU SEE THE FILM, YOU COME AWAY WITH A SENSE OF NOT JUST ABOUT HISTORY, BUT ABOUT OUR PRESENT MOMENT, BECAUSE IT BRINGS UP A LOT OF ISSUES OF WHAT WE'RE DEALING WITH TODAY.

I DON'T DEVIATE FROM HISTORY.

I STAY WITHIN HISTORY.

BUT WHAT I WANT PEOPLE TO SEE IS THAT WE, AS A PEOPLE, HAVE TO SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING IN FRONT OF US, AND WE HAVE TO BE REAL ABOUT IT.

>> OF COURSE, YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE, IT'S A DELICATE LINE.

IT'S A DELICATE LINE TO COMPARE THE NAZI ERA TO ANYTHING, RIGHT?

AND THERE ARE THOSE WHO ARE DEEPLY OFFENDED BY THE IDEA OF COMPARING THAT ERA TO ANY OTHER ERA.

AND I JUST WONDER IF YOU HAVE, HOW YOU SORT OF GRAPPLE WITH THAT.

BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY, HANNAH ARENDT, HANNAH ARENDT'S POINT WAS THAT HUMAN BEINGS ARE HUMAN BEINGS, AND THAT WE'LL BEHAVE AS HUMANS DO, GIVEN THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES.

AND HER POINT WAS A POINT THAT IS, IS, IS FREE OF TIME.

>> ALL THE QUOTES FROM HANNAH ARENDT, FROM HER BOOKS OR LETTERS, HER ESSAYS, ARE BASED ON THE EXPERIENCE THAT SHE HAD AT THE TIME, AND THAT SHE WITNESSED, OR SHE WROTE ABOUT.

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT A LOT OF THE THINGS SHE SAYS HAS RELEVANCE TO WHAT IS HAPPENING TODAY.

SO WHEN WE SEE THE FILM, OR WE HEAR WHAT SHE SAYS, IT'S NOT THAT WE'RE TRYING TO SAY, OH, WELL, THE SAME THING THAT HAPPENED IN NAZI GERMANY IS HAPPENING HERE.

NO.

WE'RE NOT SAYING THAT.

BUT WE'RE SAYING THAT WE NEED TO BE AWARE OF WHEN THINGS, NORMS WE TAKE FOR GRANTED CHANGE, AND WE NEED TO SEE IT FOR WHAT IT IS.

WE CAN'T HIDE, HER VERY LAST SPEECH, SHE GIVES HER VERY LAST SPEECH DURING AMERICA'S BICENTENNIAL.

AMERICA'S BICENTENNIAL STARTS APRIL 1975, AND IT GOES TO JULY 4th, 1976.

AND SHE GIVES A TALK AT A BOSTON FORUM IN APRIL OF 1975.

IT'S CALLED HOME TO ROOST.

AND BASICALLY WHAT SHE SAYS IS THAT , YOU KNOW, SHE TALKS ABOUT McCARTHYISM, SHE TALKS ABOUT NOTHINGISM, SHE TALKS ABOUT WATERGATE, THE PENTAGON PAPERS, VIETNAM WAR, AND SHE BASICALLY SAYS THAT WHEN THE FACTS COME HOME TO ROOST, WHEN YOU ABSOLUTELY CAN SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING IN FRONT OF YOU, DON'T, DON'T ESCAPE INTO SOME THEORIES OR RATIONALIZATION OF WHAT'S HAPPENING.

BUT YOU HAVE TO TO GET FOR WHAT IT IS, AND YOU HAD TO ACCEPT IT, AS HORRIBLE AS IT MAY BE, AND THEN YOU HAVE TO ACT.

YOU SHOULD BECOME POLITICALLY ACTIVE TO SAVE THE REPUBLIC.

AND THAT'S WHAT SHE'S TALKING ABOUT.

IN 1975.

SO MY POINT IS, WHEN PEOPLE SEE THE FILM, OF COURSE THEIR TAKE AWAY IS ABOUT, HEY, BUT THE THE, THE FILM ITSELF NEVER DEVIATES FROM HISTORY.

>> JEFF BEAVER, IN SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> O, MICHELLE, THANK YOU SO, SO MUCH.

>> AND HANNAH ARENDT REMAINS REQUIRED VIEWING AND REQUIRED READING.

AND FINALLY, A BIT OF FASHION HISTORY AND A NEW RECORD SET.

THE MOST EXPENSIVE HANDBAG TO EVER SELL AT AUCTION.

YES, FOLKS, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A HANDBAG, AND IT WENT FOR $10 MILLION.

WHY IS THAT?

WELL, APPARENTLY EVERYBODY WITH MONEY ONCE A HERMANS BIRKIN BAG, ESPECIALLY IF IT IS BIRKIN'S BIRKIN.

THAT WOULD BE JANE BERGEN, WHO SOUGHT TO FAME WITH HER BREATHY VOICE AND HER INFAMOUS MARRIAGE TO FRENCH CROONER SURGE KEN BROO.

WERE THE DARLINGS OF '60S PARIS AND THE COUNTERCULTURE.

HERE'S WHAT JANE BERGEN TOLD ME ABOUT THE GENESIS OF THAT BAG WHEN WE SPOKE SEVERAL YEARS AGO.

>> ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT YOU'RE VERY WELL KNOWN FOR IS THAT ALYSSA >> MY BAG.

>> YES, THE BAG, THE BIRKIN BAG.

I MEAN, IT COSTS TENS OF THOUSANDS IS ORDINARILY IN A SHOP, AND IT TAKES YEARS OF BEING ON A WAITING LIST TO GET IT MADE.

WHAT DOES THAT ALL MEAN TO YOU?

>> NOTHING MUCH.

I WAS SITTING NEXT DOOR TO A MAN ON A PLANE.

HE WAS VERY SWEET, BECAUSE I LET MY, MY THING WHERE YOU WRITE YOUR, YOUR -- >> YOUR DIARY.

>> IT FELL ONTO THE GROUND, MY DIARY, AND A LOT OF OTHER STUFF, ONTO THE GROUND.

AND HE SAID, REALLY, YOU SHOULD, YOU SHOULD HAVE A DIARY WITH A, WITH A POCKET ON THE AND TIED TO KEEP ALL THESE PHOTOS AND ALL THE MESS I USUALLY GOT.

AND I SAID, WHAT CAN YOU DO?

HE SAID, WELL, GIVE ME THE DIARY AND I'LL GET IT DONE FOR YOU SOUP.

AND I SAID, REALLY?

AND I SAID, IT'S A HERMES DIARY.

AND HE SAID, I AM HERMES.

AND I SAID, WHY DID YOU MAKE A BAG THAT'S FOUR TIMES THE -- THAT YOU CAN LEAVE OPEN AND SORT OF HALF THE SIZE OF MY SUITCASE?

BECAUSE GIRLS LIKE TO HAVE THINGS ON THE END OF THEIR ARM TO PUT ALL THEIR STUFF IN.

AND HE, HE SAID, WELL, DRAW IT FOR ME.

AND I DREW IT ON A LITTLE SICK BAG, THE VOMIT BAG IN THE AIRPLANE.

AND HE WAS TRUE TO HIS WORD.

AND WHEN HE AND THE COMING OVER AND PAYING FOR THE BAG, HE SAID, NO, IT'S A GIFT.

I WAS KNOCKED OUT.

AND, HE SAID, BUT WE THINK IT'S SO GREAT THAT WE'D LIKE TO GIVE IT YOUR NAME, AND TO, AND TO PUT IT OUT, YOU KNOW, AS A HANDBAG.

AND HE SAID, WE'VE ONLY HAD MY GRANDFATHER'S TRAVELING BAG AND THE KELLY, AFTER GRACE KELLY.

SO I'M GRATEFUL.

BUT IT WAS FUNNY TO COME TO NEW YORK AND THEY SAID, OH, BIRKIN, LIKE THE BAG?

I SAID, YES, NOW THE BAG IS GOING TO SING.

LOU TOLD ME THAT PEOPLE SAY TO HAVE, I THOUGHT, BLESS ME, YOU KNOW, WHEN I'M DEAD, NOT ONLY IS IT --POSSIBLY EVEN ONLY TALK ABOUT THE BAG.

>> AND SHE DIED THREE YEARS AFTER THAT INTERVIEW.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON OUR SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.