Hello and welcome to Forum 360, our public affairs program with a global outlook and a local view.

Our local view will be Ohio.

Today we are talking about gun laws in Ohio, the Second amendment.

And we have a special guest, attorney Michael B Washington.

And Mike is active as an attorney in mostly eastern Ohio and northern Ohio.

But he has a special expertise that he has been practicing involving the gun laws.

It's good to have you with us, Michael.

- Good to be here this morning.

- And we're going to talk about some of the federal and state changes that have occurred especially the gun laws in Ohio.

Michael, you've been practicing about 24 years as an attorney.

University of Akron, law school graduate.

Tell me, when you first started practicing, the gun laws for, concealed carry and so forth.

How did that look compared to where we are today?

- Well Bill, when I first started practicing, concealed carry was something that had not been adopted in Ohio.

I graduated law school in 2001.

I'm sorry, 2000.

I was licensed in 2001 and been practicing ever since.

I started off as a prosecutor for 13 years.

And after that particular, position stopped, I moved back to the Cuyahoga Falls area.

and now I live in the Canton area.

- So practicing Summit County, Stark County, Medina County, mostly this area?

But you started in [unintelegible], in that area - Harrison County.

Yeah, That was my first employment.

So at any rate, when I was down there, concealed carry came into the picture probably about 2002, 2003.

And from that point forward, there were always discussions and debates about who should be able to carry, how should you be able to carry, where should you be able to carry, things like that.

A lot of that has been covered in the statutes.

You're still restricted from being able to carry, say, in a courthouse, Or in a police station, certain federal buildings, things of that nature.

so it's not a full and complete privilege to carry anywhere you want to in the state of Ohio.

It's most places.

And even some public forums, baseball fields.

And concert places, things like that.

They can still restrict your ability to go in to those places armed.

But that's generally a policy of the owners or the presenters of the event.

- Now, the Second Amendment is broad in a sense.

Kind of describe how Ohio has perceived the Second Amendment since 2022, when the law was updated and changed in Columbus for the state?

- Well, the Second Amendment, is obviously the federal law of the land.

And in certain federal cases, the second Amendment had come to the forefront.

District of Columbia vs. Heller and McDonald vs. Chicago.

Those two cases together brought forth the concepts of the Second Amendment being an individual right.

And that individual right was applied to the states through McDonald vs. Chicago.

So it isn't just the federal government saying this.

It's required to be honored by the states.

And in Ohio, the interesting portion is Ohio's constitution in dealing with firearms.

is actually a little bit broader than the federal Constitution.

In fact, the Ohio constitutional provision related to firearms provides that people have the right to own and possess and keep and bear arms, up and including self-defense purposes.

So it specifically names self-defense as a rationale to have a firearm.

The Federal Constitution does not.

- Well, let's say Michael, you talked about the various states.

let us say a person from New York, citizen, moves to Ohio, eastern Ohio, here, northeast Ohio, and they come to Michael B. Washington's law firm, and they say, “Sir, how am I different?” Let's use New York, because that's a bigger state.

And we're coming to Ohio.

What would you tell a client?

how are things changed here?

Or What will I expect to do here in Ohio?

- Well, Ohio is significantly different than New York.

In fact, a recent federal decision New York State Rifle and Pistol Association vs. Bruen that struck down provisions of New York's concealed carry law.

And basically what you had to do prior to Bruen, prior to that decision, you had to prove that you had a significant reason for possessing and carrying a firearm.

- Right.

- The law itself was seen as fairly restrictive, and the US Supreme Court overturned it.

And based upon that, we've had a lot of new litigation, both in state courts and in federal courts, related to what restrictions are appropriate in dealing with firearms.

The standard that was adopted in Bruen was one that it basically says that if the restriction does not have a historical tradition as a firearms regulation in the state, and that means it goes back and has to go back to the time that the state was founded.

- Wow.

- If that restriction didn't exist then, it shouldn't exist now.

- I see.

- So that's what Bruen did.

Now, we've had a lot of litigation in various courts in Ohio based upon that, I handle a case briefly, related to carrying firearms in a vehicle.

- Oh, right.

That's important now.

- Looking back at the historical track record in Ohio, there were no restrictions in being able to carry or possess a firearm when you were riding on a horse or in a carriage or stagecoach or anything else or on a train.

And that argument was presented to a trial court.

It was denied.

We did not get an opportunity to appeal it.

But at any rate, that particular subject is something that I think is still going before state courts in Ohio.

- That's a good point, that going back to the history, the early days and restrictions weren't considered very often.

Now you watch, Michael in the cowboys and, western movies.

You'll see, or you come into Dodge City or Tombstone and the local marshal or sheriff will say, “gentlemen, put your guns on.

You're not going to go into the saloon with a gun.” Well, I mean, that's still possible, but the courts could challenge those kind of rules, correct?

I mean, they'll still try it, but, the law enforcement might, you know, move in that direction.

But there will be a challenge, obviously.

or could be.

- Yes.

And in those, those old statutes and ordinances they were your gun toting ordinances and things of that nature.

- Right, yeah.

- And, up until the time of concealed carry being adopted in Ohio, you had a patchwork of laws.

You had different laws in Cincinnati than you did in Cleveland.

Columbus, Toledo.

They were all different and part of what the state legislature did over the last 20 years was adopted a concept of preemption.

And what that means is the state has adopted the concept that only the state can decide how to regulate firearms.

- All right.

And the point of that is, is to prevent such a thing where if we had different restrictions in Columbus than we do in Cleveland, you may be okay in carrying a firearm around on the sidewalk in Columbus, but in Cleveland it's illegal.

- Right.

- So they wanted to avoid that.

And they have and it’s been quite an interesting situation when jurisdictions will adopt some type of restrictive firearm law that is preempted by state law.

And that allows someone in that jurisdiction in that city to sue the city to overturn the law, and they can get attorney fees.

So then effectively, the city is then paying for someone else to sue them to get the law overturned.

- Right.

So they want to see a challenge somewhere and then take it up on appeal.

- Yeah.

- Now we have the state abiding by federal constitution, the amendment, Second Amendment and Michael Washington, what can you say about the reasons people carry firearms today?

Mostly clients that you've had or you've been involved with?

Would it be self-defense or what are some of the other reasons people are carrying?

Generally it's self-defense.

At times people will carry and sometimes they just want to get the permit whether they carry or not.

But generally it is a self-defense issue.

They're concerned about going into different areas, they’re not familiar with or concerned about the population in general.

If you have an area where there's high crime and an individual is driving through that area, or they're doing business in that area, they want to be able to protect themselves.

And under the Ohio Constitution, you do have a right for self-defense.

the Second Amendment and a firearm are the tools with which to effect that.

- Now, there's the “stand your ground” position that has been adopted by other states.

And where does Ohio stand on that issue?

- Yes.

Ohio did adopt “Stand Your Ground” several years ago.

And what that basically did was under the general rule of self-defense in Ohio, there were three sub elements.

One, was that the person who was claiming self-defense could not have been the one who started whatever affray or argument or situation that that led to them using that device.

number two, was that they had to be under a bona fide, reasonable belief of either death or significant physical harm.

And the third one, was a duty to retreat that they had to retreat from that situation.

If it was safe and it was possible for them to retreat.

Now over the years in the state of Ohio, did away with the duty to retreat portion and it reads, now that you do not have a duty to retreat if you're in a place where you're lawfully allowed to be.

So if you're in a parking garage or you're coming from some location and and walking to your car and you have your firearm with you, you're acting in an appropriate fashion, You're not acting illegally.

Someone accosts you, they pull a gun, they pull a knife.

You know, they say your money or your life.

Then at that point, under the prior law, you would have had to try to escape.

- True.

- if possible.

If it was not possible, you could use your deadly force.

This day and age, right now, you don't have to undergo the duty to retreat.

- You stand your ground.

- You can stand your ground.

You can meet force with force.

- All right.

- Now, that is something that falls into a factual dispute in cases, of whether the force used by the person claiming self-defense was appropriate under the circumstance.

- Okay.

I want to, follow up on that.

First of all, let me just repeat that we are talking about the Ohio gun laws, and this is Forum 360.

I'm your host, Bill Steven Saus.

Our program with a global outlook, a local view.

Gun laws in Ohio is our local view.

Our guest is attorney Michael B. Washington.

And, Michael, we were just talking about self-defense, Stand your ground.

These two areas of understanding the gun laws in Ohio.

And we already talked about the second Amendment being the basis, the federal, constitutional, from the Bill of Rights.

Second Amendment.

We also want to talk about people.

For instance, you mentioned driving with your firearm.

And let's say you encounter, the police.

You know, duly authorized law enforcement.

and in the past, I know before 2022, when you go through sheriffs training or tactical training.

You were told what to do when an officer approached.

How has that changed?

What did what did we used to do before 2022?

And has it changed?

- Yes.

There used to be a duty to inform a law enforcement officer that you had a firearm and that you had a concealed carry permit.

- Right.

Okay.

- Part of that as well is you had to have the permit with you on your person.

Recent changes in the law back to 2022, have softened that.

You don't have to have the permit with you.

You don't necessarily have a duty to inform the officer.

However, it's probably best to do that.

When they run your license plate.

The concealed carry permit, if you have one, ends up being something that is an identifier on your license plate.

- Right, when they call your plate in.

And their dispatcher says, they have a firearm license or CCW in their past or currently.

- That's correct.

- So then, Michael, let's say you had a client that had encountered an officer and there was a dispute or something.

What would you tell your clients that are gun owners, you know?

- Well I can answer that in a little bit different way.

- Okay.

I'm also a firearms instructor, and what I tell my students is “it's always best to be honest and open” .

If there's something that happens, you have an interaction with police, either a traffic stop or something else.

but if they're investigating something, especially a traffic stop, it's always best to just let them know, hey, I have a permit.

I have my firearm on me.

You know, frankly, I'd been pulled over once, in the area, and the officer asked if I had the firearm with me.

At the time, I did not, and I didn't mention the permit because I didn't have the firearm.

- Right.

- The thing where back then, you know, if you had the gun on you, you had to mention it.

- All right.

- Now it's changed, but I don't see a problem with someone.

saying, “well, I have a permit and I have my firearm with me.” It's in the console or it's on my person or what have you.

It tends to lessen tension between the person who's been stopped and the officer.

Now, historically.

you being a hunter, also you know, you might have a long rifle or a hunting firearm.

I recall, you know, driving, growing up in Ohio, seeing the firearms on the back of the pickup truck window, you know, inside.

What is the situation now with firearms that are used for hunting?

Where you might have multiple firearms in your vehicle?

- Yes.

Well, with the situation as it stands now, the concealed carry permit and the regulations regarding having a loaded handgun in the car, only apply to a handgun.

- All right.

- So a long gun or a rifle, that is something that you cannot transport loaded in your firearm.

- Okay.

There are certain conditions, that have to be met.

One would be, if the firearm was unloaded in a closed, package case or box, it doesn't necessarily have to be locked in there.

If it's on a gun rack like the one in the back window, as you described, then the action has to be open, and it has to be readily apparent that it's not loaded or not available for use.

- Very good.

- So to speak.

So those are the general provisions to carry a long gun properly within your - Your vehicle?

- It used to be something where if you kept it in the trunk and it was unloaded, that was generally the rule.

But now we have automobiles that don't necessarily have trunks.

A lot of people drive SUVs, so there's a rear compartment that you may only be able to get to from exiting the vehicle, but it's not a trunk, per se.

- Now you have a training business avocation, Hired Gun Tactical, LLC.

Tell us a little bit how that started and what motivated you, to get involved in that and civilian marksmanship program, so forth.

- I started that in 2017. part of it is with my prosecutorial experience, I was certified to carry firearms and I also got into, scoped marksmanship.

With the range officer that worked in that area.

And I was basically trained as a law enforcement scoped marksman.

- Right.

- Never had to use that in an official capacity, obviously.

- But was always trained and ready.

- Yes.

And started “Hired Gun” in 2017.

Part of the rationale for that was to teach people The proper use of firearms, and also the proper legal use of firearms.

So that they wouldn't necessarily have to come to see me as an attorney.

- Right.

Now, let's look at some of the reasons.

Let's say the Brady Act, which was federal.

Which definitely affected people that would assault or domestic violence.

That would be if you were convicted.

How has that restricted people in Ohio?

and across the country?

The Brady bill.

- Well, that's an interesting situation, because under Ohio law, You can be convicted of a domestic violence, And as things stand now, you're not restricted under the Ohio law from owning a firearm or keeping a [unintelligible] You are under the federal law.

- Right.

- And that's a lifetime ban.

Now if there's something that say someone's charged with a domestic violence and it's reduced to some other offense, if that offense could be expunged or the conviction done away with, then that person may be able to retain their rights or get their rights back.

with the domestic violence situation, as it is now the federal law has developed into it isn't just something named domestic violence, but if you're, charged and convicted of assaulting someone who is a family member, - Right.

- It could be brother, sister, mother, father, whatever.

It may not be domestic violence in title.

but if the effect is, causing or attempting to cause physical harm to a family member or someone related to you, then that conviction could be considered a domestic violence conviction under federal law, and you would be prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm under the Brady Act.

- Right.

And of course, James Brady, one of President Reagan's, proteges, worked on his staff, and he was assaulted with a firearm being shot during that altercation with the president and fortunately, it produced something.

I mean, people took a recognized, you know, took cognizance of this whole matter of, you know, firearms being taken for assault and we know that as a prosecutor, have you ever had anything, unique, case or case that maybe you just want to talk about the facts and how the law.

Just one case, for instance, that, you were prosecuting?

Where you had to deal with somebody either, felon that was carrying a firearm or something to that effect?

- Well, all sorts of things happened within a 13 year career.

- Right.

- One case that was interesting.

We had a DUI offender, someone who had been drinking and driving.

They had a firearm on their person.

And what ended up happening was the DUI ended up being the least significant portion of that particular case.

And the weapons, while intoxicated portion of that case became the bigger issue.

- That's true, yeah.

- Yeah.

- The alcohol and drugs involved.

Yes.

And there's clear restrictions these days that you can have a CCW permit, you can carry your firearm, you can be in a restaurant that serves alcohol.

You cannot be drinking.

That's where the restriction extends.

You know, it's now if the restaurant that you go to has a “no weapons” sign on the door, obviously that's something that the individual business owner can make that argument and say, “we don't want guns in here” Then you should leave it in the car.

You shouldn't have it with you.

If you're at a place where they don't have such a sign, then there's there's no warning at that point.

And at that point, if you're carrying it's subject to that provision that you should not be drinking.

- Do you see any we have a couple of minutes left on Forum 360.

Michael Washington, do you see any, future problems that, we are seeing more criminals with guns that should not have that?

Are you seeing more, law enforcement, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms or local state police that are, you know, as we close, are trying to differentiate who the good guys are?

You know, they always say that.

“The good vs. the bad guys.” Do you see any changes coming up?

- At this point, I do know of a couple of organizations.

One without the state and one within the state that are looking to pass some red flag laws.

- Okay.

- Those I don't see being able to pass in Ohio at this point.

The situation on the federal level, for the past four years, we've had an extreme amount of law enforcement, ATF, FBI, that sort of thing, enforcing laws in a way that didn't used to be enforced in that fashion.

And I think that we've had several FFL holders and gun dealers.

- Federal Firearms License for dealing guns.

- Yes.

- Selling guns.

- Yes.

There have been a lot of them that have been put out of business because they've made certain mistakes on paperwork, things that 20, 30 years ago would not have resulted they would have been given a written warning.

“Don't do this again.

This is a mistake.” Or if there's several similar mistakes, they get retrained, things like that.

- Okay.

- but, you know, the past four years, we've had kind of a situation where any missed printing on a federal transfer form, - Could cause that to, - They could pull the license.

- All right.

- Yeah, they were doing that for some time.

- I want to thank you because we only have a few seconds left that I want to say.

Michael Washington, thanks for being with us.

And talking about the Ohio gun laws.

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